Transcript:
(00:04) oh hello Bonas di everyone I guess uh well thank you stean for joining on this call today we still have this really interesting uh news update coming out from from the like economic news uh um And discussing it with the step on on different topics uh again a little bit of a rundown um yeah so Ste just to remind everyone what's your domain and how uh yeah and how you got into macroeconomics uh well I I've studied Finance uh for a long long time already and I work in in in I've been working in in finance world for long long time
(00:52) already so uh yeah I mean it's uh it's a it's more like passion than than uh than knowledge I I I I really love uh macroeconomics topics and then I'm I usually try to to study what happens with the world right that that's uh that's something that is always interesting so yeah yeah absolutely absolutely well uh just to give you a little of updates uh everyone so we'll keep today's episode a little shorter it's going to be just about 30 minutes but we will try to discuss most interes topics
(01:31) that are happening and today I'm actually wanted to start with Germany and uh like everyone is predicting the Germany's economy to SL slow down and it's kind of been not doing well there are lots of um uh large uh facilities that actually moving to the states especially around Industries uh like a heavy Industries and high-tech Industries and it seems to be like a real interesting case where uh large companies are moving away from uh European union and specifically Germany but what what's your take on it what do
(02:12) you think it's going to happen and yeah how's it um I mean if there was a I think that it was some days ago that that the that the unemployment data was released for the for the G for the German government and uh they reach like the peak of of unemployment in the last uh two years uh it was like I think that nearly 6% five 5.
(02:40) 9% something like that so um I mean Germany is along with other European countries or I I would say most European countries going towards recession right I mean um it's uh it's each each month it's harder to think that a S Landing as as as you guys saying in the US or or something that has been going on uh in the US for for long time now like Janet chellen said no the soft Landing I don't think that that soft Landing in Europe is is is possible now right um they have suffered um the war with with Russia on a on a very heavy way you know
(03:27) prices of energy went skyrocketed like some time ago and that conflict Still Remains um Germany was the the the country that bought the most uh energy from from or gas specifically from from Russia so it was heavily affected uh and now unemployment is reaching a a a two-year high right so they have more unemployment down now that during the pandemic crisis so um yeah I think that that that's a a problem I mean yeah companies will I mean companies money flows with with the economy so if an economy is uh is going towards a
(04:10) recession um the most probable outcome is that money will outflow from from that country you know and we go to other to other countries or or to US dollar or or to us bonds um but I mean it won't be surprising that companies in in Germany specifically maybe retail companies you know the ones that that need the the the purchase power of people to to survive um that those kind of companies will will close or leave Germany it would be like a a unexpected outcome taking into account the unemployment and the problem
(04:47) with that is that it generates like um like a snowball you know it's a more unemployment less consumers uh more companies leing that's more unemployment less consumers so so um it's like a snowball that that it's uh quite hard to stop uh and that ends in in recession so um I think that in the US there is a chance still of of of going out of of of the inflation without a recession I think that soft Landing is an an a possible scenario Europe is a little bit more complicated in that sense and and I
(05:24) think that that in Europe it's it's harder to think on a on a on a non- recession scenario specifically when when you look at at these numbers of of unemployment that is one of the the first signs of of recession um I mean having now more unemployment than in the pandemic crisis uh it's uh yeah it's it's it's quite bad it's definitely a sign right like it's definitely a sign definitely if your economy is not doing I mean if your employment rates are not doing as good as during the greatest sh
(06:00) down of the economy so definitely well for example an interesting fact is that this November um they were they they created 90,000 fewer jobs than um November of last year so um and it's a lot of of less of few jobs I mean if if you take into account that regularly a country like Germany would open like I don't know 8 100,000 y shops a month 990,000 shops less it's a lot of of less opening positions so um yeah that's quite a sign of of a of economic slowdown yeah I also so that they uh stopped subsidizing gas prices uh for
(06:51) natural G gas um starting Germany is having the same problem that than that all the other countries that uh that started uh subsidizing uh gas and and and and energy I mean if you continue printing money you will generate more inflation so they need to reduce the the the expenses I mean the government expenses if they don't they will continue generate inflation and and now priority number one for most of the countries in the world is to bring inflation back to normal levels so I mean it's it's quite hard to think that
(07:30) you can continue giving money uh to people without generating inflation I mean that that uh yeah it's something that has to happen especially if you're subsidizing it like greatly uh yeah all the time um great Point great Point um I mean like all news recently have been everywhere across the glob glob basically not that positive um people say that Chinese economy is slowing down as well and actually has some really big signs of some deeper issues um do you think let me actually phrase it I mean everyone knows what's going on with
(08:21) China but like do you think uh their problems actually just like Germany's problems aren going to have a Snowball Effect meaning that their problems are just going to get greater as they face demographic challenges some trade challenges and so on uh will their problems just kind of continue to be the the problem with the the biggest problem with ch with China now is a real estate market you know real estate market is collapsing uh well everg Grand just close the doors I mean they just bankrupt uh and and everr is
(08:59) like largest Chinese uh uh company so real estate company right so um and I mean if you think about it okay if you say the largest the largest company went bankrupt I mean it's matter of time before others go bankrupt too right so and the problem with that is that um real estate has been like a an important engine of the economy for the during the last year for China right they build thousand of cities buildings and now they have all those like complete cities like with with no people living in it because no one is buying homes and no
(09:40) one is buying all those buildings so you have thousands and thousands of buildings that are completely empty and if you think about that all the companies all those companies all those those large real estate companies invested a lot of money there and they're not going to get a scent from those bill buildings so the most probable outcome is that they are going to close I mean they will go Bank you can you can survive without S without selling right the sales is the basic of of a of a of a real estate company so um
(10:14) and it's the problem and the problem is that is if um if real estate Falls you will probably see the Chinese economy going into recession I don't think that they can uh they they can um uh survive or or or avoid a recession um with a with a real estate stra with a real estate market market in in in crisis I think that it's it's just not possible so yeah I mean I think that that it's uh and the problem with with China falling into recession is that um China is the first is the main buyer in
(10:50) the world I mean China Imports from lots of countries and and it's the main importer in in the world so if chineses stop uh consuming Goods uh China China will will stop importing goods and that would mean uh that would mean Less sales for a lot of companies in the world that basically leave basically leave on or or or rely on Chinese economy to to survive so I mean that would impact in all the world for sure yeah that's so true and but overall do you think it's um was a bad idea initially for Chinese economy to just
(11:31) kind of rely on this real estate markets you know they just kind of relied on it and it was just generating them this fake gross kind of situation you know and that's like a political problem also you know yeah I mean politics in in in China have always been a problem at least um since uh since a lot of a lot of years ago but um yeah I mean the problem is not I mean the problem is political obviously but um the problem is that that China generated like this giant bubble around real estate and and around Chinese economy um and and think that
(12:14) the bubble might have exploded right so uh and and as always when when bubbles explode you know everything collapses you you lived in in the US when when 2008 bubbles floated and and I mean the same the same thing is happen or might be happening in in China now you know and and also you see in other in other companies know the tech companies for example in China are are um are firing people like monthly and it's thousands people being fired every month from technology companies so I mean it's like a like a domino effect where the the
(12:53) economy it's collapsing uh industry by industry right so um I mean the Chinese would never accept recession I mean they will accept it once they cannot deny it right so that that's that's a um that's that's the fact you know Chinese control the media they control the information flow that goes in and out in in in into the world so they will never admit a recession unless they cannot hide it anymore so um there are some Economist that actually think that China might now be already in recession and they are not
(13:27) showing it I mean they are some some guys that that think that that that that they say okay I mean there there's no way China is not in a recession with a collapse real estate market so there are people that that that think that I mean they are already in a recession and they are hiding it and it may be true I don't know I mean but but it may be true and also the fact that uh with especially with that type of real estate that's like they have excess of real estate that excess of unaffordable real
(13:56) estate that is basically just staying there and dying slowly slowly just DET deteriorating and the problem with that is it's actually can be cheaper to just kind of have like just accept it as a sank cost and basically just forget about it and just keep maintaining it and without any hope for actually it ever being occupied you know so yeah I mean that that's that's correct and and and and and actually I think that it's already it's already happening some some weeks ago or some months ago I don't
(14:28) recall now uh there was a a video about uh that showed that there was like you know 20 buildings being demolished because they were not able to to um to finish them so they were demolishing them just to uh sell the land and um and yeah I mean but but that's that's you know what what I was talking about I mean Chinese government will try to keep uh the the show going they will try to show the world that they are still uh um uh a strong economy um and and and while the rest of the world is going into a
(15:05) recession or or into a hard time I mean maybe us manages to go through the through the soft Landing but it's it's not a it's not a an amusement park you know I mean you are going through a hard time so the world is going through a hard time and and Chinese government says that in China everything's okay so it's a little I mean it's h it's like impossible to to happen I mean all the greatest economies in the world are going through a crisis and and China is going through an expansion I mean it's
(15:35) it's weird to think about it so um so yeah I mean it will obviously be um the the best idea to like uh go I mean to to demolish all the buildings and and accept that they are in a recession but I think that that the problem is that they don't want to do it they don't want to accept that and and so they have to keep the the circus running and so as I told they have those enormous cities that were I know maybe it's a city for 20,000 people and there are like 5,000 people living in there right so and it's
(16:08) like a GS town you know like the Western uh the old western towns um and and yeah it's but they keep it there they they keep the the show going you know the show must go on as as as a queen son just like Henry kissen said the one the the guy that just passed away way yesterday uh and our condolences to his family but yeah uh the thing with Chinese econom is that policy is now running the economy it's not the opposite you know that's the problem yeah that's it that's it um well there's
(16:46) another uh place in the world that's been run by not by the economy but by something else and that place is Israel and the economists are looking into this and there are lots of scripts being like basically called into the army and it's a Workforce that's being taken away the most how you say the most workable I guess that the people at the prime of their age being just taken away from the economy and also the Israel situation where they have both female and male conscripts they're all being
(17:19) called and it really drastically affects their economy and uh well the World Bank all the big economists are predicting isra economy to not to C shrink but at least to grow much slower than they used to grow uh but do you have any specific kind of ideas on that I mean war is uh the only country that will ever benefit of war is the US I mean uh it's the only country that will ever get uh something good or or or stronger economy after a war um in the rest of the world the the war implies recession the war implies um government
(18:06) government spending going up and that implies money being printed and that ends up in inflation and uh and of course the the humanitarian side of of every war right people dying and and everything that that that that has to do with with with that part but going strictly to the economy uh work can never be uh or or or or it's it's uh it's it's never good for the economy and this uh this this uh things that you are saying about people being taken out of the economy and and and send it into into war um adds up with with different
(18:45) things that that end up in in in in in a crisis for example you take people out of the economy the economy produces less you have less offer so prices of goods will go up and you have inflation and also you are printing money to um to to go through that war so you are you are going to create more inflation and uh inflation ends up uh froing or freeezing the economy um because you don't have a prices for reference and I mean yeah I mean the the the the the the Israel economy will collapse if if this war continues Through Time right it's a yeah
(19:26) it's a perod really and and it's a because you know go ahead yeah sorry and it's a because I mean Israel economy has been growing a lot in the last years right it's uh uh it's one of the fastest growing economies and and also in terms of of um technology development and so it's a it's it's a Pity that that you are taking all those uh all all all that people that they are like capable workers with with with high level of Education with with the capability of developed technology and you're taking
(20:01) them into a war uh and and getting them out of of of all that for the economy so I mean yeah it's a it's a shame that that that's that's happening from I mean far from the humanitarian side right that that's a that's for sure yeah catastrophic but from an economy point of view it's uh it's a shame that that that the his economy will will will slow down because they were just growing uh at a a really fast pace right so yeah yeah exactly it's just uh uh there's one point that I
(20:37) wanted to make and then we'll get into this like very short session like not session but I just wanted to ask you something about Kian economy but um yeah especially with high value added like the Israel's economy is very high value added right so it's not it's not it's not Russian economy that's based on oil you know it's a it's a very high value added lots of RNG lots of scientific kind of like multiplier on top of that uh whatever is going on uh and that part of it is really
(21:10) interesting and so what I'm going to or how I want to uh just like have this couple of three minutes of your opinion on just everyone remembers what Kian economy is right and how like if through military expenses uh or through military uh expenses basically how like through multiplier how it kind of goes down the stream but what's the opposite of effect of it so how much what's the multiplier uh on government spending the problem with with with uh with government spending in in in military is that um
(21:53) the military industry I mean obviously you have like high-tech and development in the military industry but um the people that that that is uh when when you when you expand your your military expenses the people that that is hired in the military industry is like um low uh I mean it's like people with with low um low levels of Education I mean it's just factories right so it's people that go to the factory and and and produce so what you're doing is you are giving um jobs to people that produce Goods and
(22:29) taking out jobs from industry that create uh value right so um so the the opposite of that is is is it's a it's that one I mean the the the the Israeli economy relies on on on on people's brain and and I mean they r on on on educated people I mean it's a it's a it's a a a a growing economy a fast growing economy that is not growing due to uh the international price of of soy or or or or of wheat or oil I mean it's an it's a country that is growing based on the knowledge of people and and on
(23:07) the on the capability of of people to produce um to produce knowledge to produce new patents new inventions uh so if you take that people and and and and lead them to work and you replace those people in the economy by people that don't need any education because they just need to pull a bottom into a I mean a factory or or I mean you are changing your economy and you're are turning a a fast growing economy technology relate or techn that relies on technology into a economy that relies on on on manufacturing Goods so you're are going
(23:45) like one step uh I mean backwards you know instead of going forward because um economies tend to go forward right so you first produce like um commodity then you produce like um manufactur Commodities then you produce manufactur Goods then you produce knowledge right so uh now Israel is going to go backwards so they're going to change an economy that produce knowledge and to turn it into an economy that produce Goods yeah so they're going to to take a step backwards and and that I think that it's the the the the worst outcome for
(24:20) for that economy and for its people you know um because I mean the the the this generation uh if that happens and and and Wars goes uh goes on and on for for several years you will have a complete generation of people that won't be studing at the University for example because you are taking them out um from their universities or from their jobs sending them to work they they they spend a lot of time there and even though they come back they have already uh spend a lot of time that they could have used in studying and and developing
(24:57) inventions and and and getting their degrees uh you have loow you have slowed them down uh several years maybe so um so yeah I mean that that's that's a shame for for for for an economy that that that managed to be I mean the the the surprise the the the amazing thing about Israel is that it's it's not a a a um a first class economy right I mean it's not the us or Japan I mean it's it's not at that level but they managed to produce technology despite not being at the same level right they managed to produce the
(25:36) the same technology or or or or or technology at at the same level as Japan the us but without being that economy right so I think it's a shame from from an economic point of view the that that this m or that that that um that Innovation um um that that Innovation um um Matrix could be destroyed so that that's really a shame yeah that's so true that's so true um yeah now let's actually get to that one interesting topic that we want to discuss from the very beginning I mean to remind everyone is steon is from
(26:17) Argentina uh and Argentina has been creating or producing some really interesting uh subjects in the past couple of weeks uh so yeah tell us a little bit more about what's going on and how well I mean um to two years ago a new a new party was born um that it's called um like um in English it would be something like um Freedom going forward or Libertarians going forward right it's La Liber in in Spanish and that part is lead by a guy that is a a Libertarian I mean he's he says he's a Libertarian and
(27:01) and the most um weird thing of all this is that this guy during the last two years has been saying everything that he's going to do so I'm going to cut off spending a government spending I'm going to um um destroy the Argentinian peso and replace it through the us or for the US dollar uh I'm going to sell all the companies that the government has and the weird thing is that historically in Argentina that guy with that speech would would have I know we would have lost I mean I mean could have
(27:37) lost I mean uh something like someone like that would have get like I don't know 1% of of of votes and and these because you guys are famous for this leftist kind of panista type of guys right yeah that that's right I mean and and even the ones that that are not peronist um they are not fully libertarian I mean in general Argentina Argentina has like um cani guys and and and socialist guys so we are always going on between KES and and and and Marx you know like like like there and now we have this guy that has been
(28:16) talking about about Libertarians and and capitalism and during the last two years and he managed to won to win sorry and and some weird things for example I know one of the things that he said uh during all the during the whole campaign is that okay I'm going to sell um all the companies uh that belong to the government right so and he got votes of people that work in those companies you know so people that probably knows that they're going to lose their jobs because I mean if if a government sells a
(28:52) company and and a private company buys it the most probable outcome is they will fire most of the employees to make it efficient right that that's the idea and they got votes from people that will get fired I mean that it's the most probably I is that one right so um so yeah it's quite an interesting um an interesting fact and and now the the question that everybody is is asking is okay will be this guy able to do what he was planning to do because now as he's KN or the part's new in politics he
(29:27) barely have a senator I mean in in Congress he has a a very minority in the Congress so it's very hard for him to pass laws without negotiating with other parties um he even he even didn't have enough people in their party to complete all the positions that a government requires for example the the the um the the Finance Minister for example is uh is someone from other party and for example the Brazilian Ambassador is also someone from other party so he's now like grabbing people from other parties
(30:02) to try to feel the the the the stuff that he needs to run the country so I mean it now it's like a um a huge uh question mark right so what would he be able to do uh once he uh uh once he he start in as a president on the on the 10th of December so now it's it's a a huge question Mark but the the interesting thing is that and I I think that that is something that I would that I would um I would like to to to to stay positive with this and this that um people decided that it was time for a change and and that I think it's
(30:46) positive right I mean I don't know if this change will will end up in something good or something bad I know if this guy will be able to um to run the country and and to do the the the the the the things that he needs to do to to turn Argentina into a a a normal country I'm not asking for a for a first world country I'm just asking for a normal country or into normal economy um but at least people voted for a change right they they voted for something different and that I think it's valuable
(31:19) I think that that's that's something everyone is kind of uh confused about and they do not know what to expect from the guy meaning like is he going to uh like a really crazy guy uh that's going to get Ed some sometimes down the road or is he going to be more like Trump where the show man type of Personality was switched was pretty much pragmatic um conservative economy during the campaign if you if you look at at at um at M Kier m is this guy if you look at M's campaign it's very similar to
(31:53) Trump and to bonaro that was the the the the capitalist president of Brazil uh the last one right no but this guy is much more Extravaganza than bolara I would say right but yeah it's it's uh it's Trump multiplied by 10 right so um yeah I mean I think that that in the end he will have to be more pragmatic I mean most of the changes he tend to do are I mean are are impossible from a from a democratic point of view right so in in taking into account that we have a democracy and and that he needs to NE
(32:27) negotiate with other political parties um I think that there are some or the more radical changes he he plans to do are I mean it will be difficult for him to do it and I think that in the end he will have to be more pragmatic more or less like Trump did uh like for example Trump with the wall no the wall that divides Mexico and the us so I mean I mean I think that in the end he will end up being more pragmatic actually he now agre um he now um um made an agreement with with uh with with the previous president
(33:04) right with the previous party right that that that was more liberal oriented um and and that it's a sign of of of pragmatism right so I think that um he definitely has like a crazy personality I mean if you look at it I know the videos I mean he shouts and and and screams and and and has like a cses weird behavior um but I think that that in the end he will turn into a a a pragmatic guy I mean he's like a he's like a candidate born and made in social networks it's a candidate that was born in social networks and and that made all
(33:46) his campaign in social networks and and that that and that I think that that and and and it's also an outsider of the political uh environment and I think that people what SE him is something different right so in fact there are some there are some polls that shows that um people that voting him it's not sure that he's going to go to to be a a good president I mean there are a lot of people that voted him just for being different and and not for being better um exactly so it's more of like anti-establishment right it's like oh
(34:26) we're so tired of this two parties just kind of like going back and forth between each other all this corrupt stuff and lots of corruption political corruption and that's I think that that's that's that's the the key that was the key in this election but I mean now we have a huge a huge question mark so I mean we could be like a a normal country in five years or or we could be worse than Venezuela I don't know but I mean it's it's a a situation that I mean I think that that I think no one a no
(34:58) one can even like predict what what could happen I mean in general when when you get to the end of the year you know that happens in every country when you get to the end of the year there are a lot of Economist economists going out and saying okay so next year the country will grow like this or or the currency will happen like this and the demand and supply and prices and this this uh this year there are no Economist saying okay which will be the value of the dollar next year I mean no one no one aims to guess it or or or or which will be know
(35:34) inflation next year I mean no one is trying to guess anything because no one can't guess I mean no one can guess anything so I think that we will just go with the flow and and and see what happens no it's a that's that's that's the way now okay then I have three questions but you have to answer them very shortly like fast fast uh so three questions first question is so one uh famous economist uh like kind of Economist journalist said um he was the question is if your president the Argentinian new
(36:09) president or president elect I guess is the right way to say that yeah uh he's acting or he's really like that so what's your answer sure I think that he's really like that okay I think his personality uh I I'm hoping my hope is that as as long as he's President we will try to act differently but I think that he's it's is his true personality yeah okay question number two um what are I mean just like Michael Bloomberg says men lie women lie feelings lie numbers don't lie so what what I mean Argentina had really
(36:50) bad inflation uh so how did markets react to his win Market re it was uh it was something uh that was something interesting in the first in the general well the the pre-elections you know we have like a like a pre-election when it's like a poll then you have the general and then you have the the final right so in the pre-election with this guy won markets crashed completely this was like okay this wacko guy is going to be president so everyone starts selling stocks and and and dollar the dollar Rose a lot but
(37:31) in this last election the the behavior of the market was the opposite one everyone went everything went up dollar went down um and I think that this is because from the first pre-election to this one this guy turned more pragmatic stop talking about some quo ideas start talking about more pragmatic ideas and I think that the the market is seeing what what I'm what I'm hoping that this guy is a crazy guy but when he's president he will not he will try to avoid acting as a crazy guy right so markets rect
(38:11) reacted well I know let's see I mean as always we have to see what happens when he uh when he becomes actual president then and and and the first measures and and all that so but up to now markets have reacted well cool what about yourself are you bullish or beish about this uh I would say I'm holding I'm not sing or M I'm holding I'm just uh waiting I'm just waiting and see what happens I think that I'm I'm hoping I'm hoping that this guy uh ends up being someone that makes the changes that has
(38:51) to be made that are not uh politically correct because they are very hard and people will suffer for sure um but I think that this guy will do what it has to be done uh but that will be really really difficult so my hope is that he can um hang in there during next year uh and if he manag to to survive next year maybe Argentina has the opportunity to to grow again I think we should make our next podcast around December 11 and see definitely all right well thank you everyone thanks EST stean for jumping on the call today
(39:33) and take with talk to you on December 11th let's see thank you bye all right by bye